Wed, August 25th, 2004 by east3rd
Hello, friends. I'm pretty new to this whole photoblogging phenomenon, but so far I've noticed in my travels that comments of criticism are a rarity on people's photoblogs. I for one would kinda rather have 10 comments ripping my stuff apart rather than 10 comments praising a photo that could certainly be a lot better.
Don't get me wrong-- I love it when people make ANY kind of comment on a photo of mine, and "Great shot" comments are very encouraging, but the reason I started a photoblog in the first place was to get help in identifying my mistakes, learning from suggestions, and overall just gaining a different perspective on my photographs, and in turn, help others do the same... Anyway, I'm wondering if photobloggers feel the same way, and if so, why are they so shy in offering constructive criticism to their fellow photographers...
August 25th, 2004 at 3:32 pm
I guess most people are of the impression, "if you don't have anything good to say don't say it at all"
With me, sometimes I get a lot of comments and sometimes I get none.
If i see something on a photoblog that I don't like I tend to go look for something that I do like.
I don't always have a lot of time to surf around, and when I do, it's limited.
That being said, I have been given criticism on my site from time to time. More often than I see on other sites. And often I wonder how to interpret it.
The problem with the internet is that things are left up to your own interpretation. A critical comment can easily be mistaken for a mean comment.
I geuss an easy way to learn from your own blog is to analyse the images that don't get commented on. And ask yourself why you think it is a good or bad shot.
That's my two cents.
Of course, if someone were to ask me, I would be more than happy to breakdown someone shots and give a critical comment on how it can be improved.
August 25th, 2004 at 3:45 pm
east3rd -- If you want criticism, then just ask for it, right there on the page. Your visitors probably just need the invitation. (But be careful what you wish for....)
August 25th, 2004 at 3:47 pm
LOL! Bring it on! But seriously, I think Photojunkie is onto something. Thanks for the insight!
August 25th, 2004 at 3:53 pm
I agree...
I've heard people equate their photoblog to their home. It would be strange for a person to come into your house and start telling you that you decorated it poorly... or that the wallpaper is all crooked. (If I remember right, makinghappy.com said something like that in one of her blog posts and it really made sense to me.)
Anyhow, I think people are just trying to have manners, which is a good thing in my opinion.
So, if you want constructive criticism, I would suggest that you permanently state this in your comments area. Something like, "Constructive comments are welcome here! Tell me how to improve my technique." Or whatever.
For some strange reason photobloggers tend to be thoughtful and kind, so you have to let them know that you don't mind a "harsh" comment here and there.
August 25th, 2004 at 4:04 pm
Thanks for the advice. I've updated my homepage accordingly. By the way, on the other side of the coin, do you folks like/want more criticism-based comments, or am I alone?
August 25th, 2004 at 4:06 pm
FYI... I can't find that comment that I was talking about on makinghappy.com, but I thought it was right around here:
http://www.makinghappy.com/archive/000296.php
Maybe I imagined it... Anyhow, that's an interesting thread nonetheless.
August 25th, 2004 at 4:10 pm
Weird, we just had this same thing come up on a photography message board the other day. I think it comes down to: a photoblog is something very personal. It's easy to critique a piece but in the context of someone's personal blog it's hard not to feel like you are maybe being rude or criticizing the person rather than the photo. I've seen some very good, insightful commentary on some of the more popular blogs - chromasia in particular comes to mind. But he works hard to really encourage that kind of feedback and whenever people make negative remarks, he thanks them for it even if he disagrees with the comment.
The other side of this is: A useful critique doesn't have to be negative. I really find it helpful when people tell me WHY they like a particular image... the more specific the better. I try to do the same thing when I comment on others' work but sometimes all I can think to say is "Wow, this is perfect."
Hey maybe I should start a new meme called "Only Negative" where you can ONLY make critical comments on a particular photo. It stays up for a week, gets totally ripped apart, then replaced by another one. Hmmm...
August 25th, 2004 at 4:15 pm
Brandon, that thread is interesting indeed... though I wouldn't mind seeing a comment like that on someone's (or even my own) site IF there was more to it like: "This does nothing for me... AND HERE'S WHY..." I agree that simply saying "This does nothing for me" is souless and wrong.
But, if you include the "constructive" part of the criticism, then something can be learned.
August 25th, 2004 at 4:17 pm
Tiffany, your "Only Negative" meme is an outstanding idea. I'd be the first to participate!
August 25th, 2004 at 4:29 pm
I actually got a comment once, which was meant to be constructive. Unfortunately, the commenter used the wrong terminology for what they wanted to say. I ended up commenting back defending my original post.. and it almost became a mini war of words.
There are a few people that I would completely accept constructive criticism from in the community. There are many many more that are merely learning and don't know what they are talking about half the time.
Also commenting on images is very subjective. I have to wonder if I should include more details explaination of my work. To defend the work. It's always interesting when I post a lofi image (something taken with my lubitel, holga or diana..) and people comment on technical aspects on how to make it better(not all my pictures are categorized by cameras.) In cases like these, they obviously DON'T GET IT.
"why is the image a little blurry" More often than not, it's blurry on purpose.
August 25th, 2004 at 4:32 pm
i don't know much about photography, but the first sentence of the second paragraph in your post is what we call a 'run-on sentence'. try splitting it up into two or three sentences.
i'm just here to help.
August 25th, 2004 at 4:37 pm
Ian is such a harsh critic.
August 25th, 2004 at 4:38 pm
LOL Ian-- I think you're at the wrong blog. Is this what you're looking for?
http://vagrantgrammar.blogspot.com/
August 25th, 2004 at 4:42 pm
David, the nice thing about your site East3rd is that you have alternative images posted with each image.
It kinda lends and makes it easier to leave constructive comments when you are able to compare and contrast the various images as a whole. It's easier to see what people liked and don't like.
I left you a couple more comments
August 25th, 2004 at 4:46 pm
LOL ian
I'm a photographer, not a writer.
August 25th, 2004 at 4:47 pm
thanks, east3rd. i've bookmarked that site now and i will pore over it daily in hopes of besting them at their own game.
August 25th, 2004 at 5:04 pm
"I've seen some very good, insightful commentary on some of the more popular blogs - chromasia in particular comes to mind".
Thanks Tiffany.
David; one of the things that I think makes a difference is if you join in with the comments; i.e. post a comment or two in response to other people's comments. I initially used to reply to comments by email, and rarely commented myself, but have since found that 'joining in' does make a difference; i.e. you end up with more of a debate/discussion than just a series of disparate remarks.
Oh, I left a comment too
August 25th, 2004 at 5:08 pm
I don't leave constructive criticism because i'm one of those that don't know what they're talking about! I do, though, appreciate it on my own site.
August 25th, 2004 at 5:16 pm
i have discussed this at length lately in several places offline and online. weird indeed tiffany. so here is my final definitive answer on the subject.
personally, i am not looking for criticism in particular on my blog. i do appreciate all reactions so it is par for the course. for example, david of just another photoblog has been a valued visitor to my site from the beginning, and he "gets" what i am trying to do. aside from being a gifted photographer, david is insightful and leaves wonderful comments that are far beyond the usual "great shot". if he wants to be a little critical i don't mind at all and am not offended by it since he knows what he is talking about.
trust me, if there is a 'technical' problem with one of my photos, i know about it. as has been discussed a few times here before, for me the idea of the photo is more important than the technical aspects. i'm not trying to become a super savvy 20 camera using technican, but a photographer who shares a 2.0 megapixel view of the world around her.
i do get more conversation type comments which i love. in one i was lamenting about a lack of inspiration, in a reply comment the always poetic mrs. oddgers of googlefish wrote:
"sometimes i forgot that photography is about learning to see, and not about taking home photo trophies."
i agree with that, and is one of the reasons i have a photoblog and not a studio. also, being able to have those kinds of conversations is the reason i have comments, not to just discuss the technical merit of my own photography, but to try to connect with others in some small fashion.
if you want criticism ask for it, trust me you will get tons. however if someone isn't asking for it, then realize you might not be doing them a 'favor'. in those cases perhaps you shouldn't say anything and wonder why it is so important for you to want to point it out in the first place.
August 25th, 2004 at 5:22 pm
I personally welcome constructive criticism with open arms. I get it from a few different people, and appreciate that they took the time to say something. I'm not all that good yet with the technical side of photography (or photoshop, for that matter), so any commentary helps. I also appreciate when people go into detail as to why they enjoy the photo...not that I don't like the 'great shot!' comments, as well.
As Rannie briefly mentioned above, I also tend to question shots I posted that didn't receive a single comment. Was it that uninteresting? Would I like the same image if I came across it on another site?
As for me giving constructive criticism on other sites, I rarely do it. Every once in a while, I'll comment on how *I'd* crop a photo or whatever, but I don't really give any technical criticism, because I don't feel "qualified" to.
August 25th, 2004 at 5:47 pm
I like happy shiny people.
August 25th, 2004 at 6:36 pm
Well this has turned into quite a discussion. What I find most interesting is hearing about the reasons that different people have for creating photoblogs, and ultimately, what drives them to take and post photographs. And it seems like a person's enthusiasm for receiving criticism all is directly related to this drive. So I think that if you feel strongly about criticism one way or the other, being upfront about it is important.
August 25th, 2004 at 8:59 pm
I tend to comment only when I'm really blown away by an image. In those cases, I want to be able to tell the photographer how I felt about the work. If an image doesn't move me, I usually move on. Partially because I don't believe I'm a skilled-enough reviewer to comment on technique or composition, and partially because I don't have the time to give it that level of involvement.
August 25th, 2004 at 10:13 pm
usually, i only give constructive criticism when a photo, in my opinion, is really really good, except for a minor detail, then i'll voice it out but i'll say too that it is only a matter of opinion, in case the photographer had intended it that particular way intentionally. i never comment on photos i don't like at all.
August 25th, 2004 at 10:14 pm
I follow the "if you don't have anything good to say don't say it at all" idea. If I hit a site that doesn't interest me or IMHO is crap, I usually don't stay long enough to leave a note. But, if I paruse photos for 10 minutes, I will usually leave a comment on the way out. I tend to be more impressed by a body of work or a series rather than that one great shot. I also agree that my better images get more comments.
August 26th, 2004 at 1:57 am
bob - I read that three times before I realized you didn't say "I like happy SKINNY people" and was really trying to figure out what the heck that had to do with anything. I'm a little sensitive about my weight right now, can you tell? LOL
August 26th, 2004 at 8:49 am
~I try to be constructive while leaving commnets on fotoblogs, never demonstrative, and pass along simple editing blips that I have learned in comments left behind on images I have posted on photoblink.com. If you are looking to receive a critique that is worthy I agree with an above comment, ask for it...you may receive assistance to better your shooting and editing techniques, photoblink.com is a worthy site, although a bit rocky lately with non-anon voting added, but there are a fair # of shooters who are members that will consistently provide you with constructive critique as well as honest opinions about content/subject matter and ediiting skills...never react negatively towards another's comment, even if the verbiage is not what you desired. It's all a matter of opinion and perspective, right?~
August 26th, 2004 at 9:38 am
In the vain of, "No comments must mean that people don't like the images"
I tend to post more than one image a day. I have to wonder sometimes if my other images are losing out on potential feedback because I am posting to often. But that's the reason why i include a "More from Today" hyperlink on the main page, so people can go back and view all of today's images at once.
However, I have also notice on my site in general, people tend to shy away from posting feedback on my concert images (aside from any fans that happen upon the site). I have to wonder if this is the case because the images are bad or because the artists are not BIG NAMES.
Concert photography is a very difficult task as you have no control over the lighting (often very dark) or the artists movement. But I like to think that I do a fairly decent job considering. Not all my concert images are technically perfect (not totally sharp etc etc) but I think in most cases I have captured something noteworthy. Maybe this isn't something that I am suited for.
You can find a sampling of my concert images here.
http://www.photojunkie.ca/archives/in_concert/index.php
Please feel free to leave feedback on these, I'm interested to know if I'm on track or not.
There is actually a lot more concert images that have never seen the light of day (A TON MORE). I figured if people enjoy the ones I have up now, maybe I will post a bunch more in the near future.
August 26th, 2004 at 9:55 am
What a great discussion!
I've only just got my 'blogging' site up and I love this whole experience of sharing and looking at photographs.
I have only had a few comments so far on my site and they have all been positive 'great shot' type comments, a few a little more detailed. I must say that these comments make me feel on top of the world. As an amateur photographer (wanting/needing confidence) any sort of compliment installs belief in myself and spurs me on to take more. It's great that some of the shots on my site that i would consider favs of mine, no-one has commented on, it's good to see how other people vew them.
To add, I agree that if you are after constructive critism, just ask. I have one image on my site taken of a model in a sort of fashion style. It's a field I haven't ventured in and wanted any sort of comment, positive or negative, so I've asked. Unfortunately I haven't received anything as yet, but I hope I do.
I did have one of these ranking things on my site, you just click positive or negative. The other day I looked and someone had been through and clicked negative on half of the images. Now, I don't care if they don't like the images, just tell me why, it left me thinking 'are they really crap or someone just being an idiot!'. I've removed that feature now :-).
Cheers,
Andy
August 26th, 2004 at 10:10 am
Photojunkie, maybe posting too often could be problematic. Here's how I visit sites that I come back to every day: I've got a list of around 20 of my favorites (yours included!) in a bookmarks folder, and every morning I select the "open in tabs" feature of my browser. All the sites get loaded at once, and I pretty much just look at the first page (unless I didn't visit the site the previous day) of each site. For those sites, I most likely won't see them again until the following morning, when I repeat the ritual. So, I guess I could be missing things!
August 26th, 2004 at 10:18 am
Apologies for the duplicated posting on your site Photojunkie (bloody macs!).
Andy
August 26th, 2004 at 10:20 am
i leave comments more in a social way, or to say "hey i've been to your site for the first time". i rarely leave critique unless it's asked for. who am i to critique really? meh.
August 26th, 2004 at 11:45 am
I only leave critical comments on someone's site if I know him/her and we've left comments on each other's sites in the past. I don't know if I've ever seen anyone specifically ask for feedback on their blog, but I see it all the time in the PopPhoto forums ( http://www.popphoto.com beware, their new forum software is being a little wacky and absolutely hates Safari)
August 26th, 2004 at 11:47 am
something that i have found interesting is that the code of conduct discussed here in the previous posts has evolved on its own in an unspoken yet rarely broken "manners-meme". i was suprised when i first started looking at other bloggers messages and found them short and insubstantial. (my kids are much more critical of my photos than the blogger community)
it was my 8-year old daughter who pointed out for the first time that a lot of bloggers post fast and overtly positive comments as a way of improving their standings in the "photoblogs top 100" this is not to say that most of those top 100 bloggers don't belong there but i think there could be more positive, constructive criticism as a rule.
creating a criticism "safe-zone" on your blog is a great idea if you want to dictate the tone of the commentary and i think it is fair to assume that if criticism is not openly encouraged then it shouldn't be given. i hope to update my homepage today
-kyle
August 26th, 2004 at 12:44 pm
one more thought...
i don't think that the number of comments makes an image better. if you post a series often people will post on just one. also, some people comment via email, or don't comment at all. some of my favorite photoblogs don't even have comments enabled or receive just a few here and there. does that mean that their images aren't as good as a site that gets more traffic and therefore more comments?? of course not. some of my images have no comments and i have never thought, oh, this isn't good because of it.
i used to comment more, but lately don't have as much time. so now i just comment on a few images if i have something to add. that doesn't mean i don't like the other ones. we all have lives outside of the photoblog world and our time is valuable. so a short comment here and there is really all one should expect realistically.
August 26th, 2004 at 1:48 pm
i get very few comments on my photos at all, and sometimes i wonder "do they all suck?" but more often than not i just wonder "is anyone looking?".
i try to leave comments on other's blogs when i have something to say, or the picture has left a definate impact, or i have some question about the photo in particular, but there are plenty of times where i haven't left any comments - not because the work doesn't deserve comments, but maybe i just have nothing to say about it, or what has been said by other commentors pretty much covers it all.
as for criticism, i think it's up to each blogger to decide if they want criticism or not(and if you want serious criticism, it's probably best to post that you really want criticism). often times when i see people leaving criticism in the comments i feel like those people are being know it alls, or just too nitpicky. they may not mean to, but that's the way they sometimes come off. this may have to do more with the way certain people criticize, than the criticism itself.
people have many different reasons for posting images on their blogs, and not all of them are setting out to be semi-professional photographers. sometimes a blog is like a gallery. so when i see criticism in the comments, it's like someone has come up to a photographer/artist and said "this picture would have been better if you had done this" and it just seems out of place or uncalled for. there's a difference between a gallery show and a critique. i guess the real question is, is your blog a gallery or a critique or something in between? i think mine is something in between.
August 26th, 2004 at 2:36 pm
constructive criticism is hard, given that there are a corpus of composition and other rules, the last of which is always, "there are no rules". i cruise other's photoblogs for inspiration and to follow someone's style and choices. Having constructive criticism is of interest for some of my images, but certainly not all.
the photoblog community is getting fairly large. Maybe one of the ways to keep things imtimate is to create circles of members for critiques, comments, and other purposes.
August 26th, 2004 at 3:46 pm
That post Brandon mentioned is here http://www.makinghappy.com/archive/000274.php It's hard to find because I wrote that stuff in the comments.
This became an issue for me initially because someone said something critical and regular visiters got defensive. I didn't mind the critical comments because of the spirit it was given in. But at other times the negative comments were just rude and kind of egotistical.
I agree that perspective comes down to your purpose for your site. I keep comments open and enjoy the discussions but when it comes down to it I usually know what is technically wrong with my photos and chose to ignore that for whatever reason. I post what I want and try not to let the perspective of others effect that... and of course I'm not perfect and sometimes comments do effect me. But my intent was never "I want to be a super-amazing photographer please tell me what I'm doing wrong." but more of a "here's my life. here are some pictures. the end."
August 26th, 2004 at 7:00 pm
I love comments--good or bad and I would NEVER EVER delete a critical comment of my work. Go ahead try me
Comments--even if they are one word--say that you have had the time in your busy day to actually come to my blog. Thats a real compliment!
In my early newspaper days, some editors would say that the image I brought to them is total crap or "This is f@#king garbage" Tough editors but good editors.
When Ernest Hemingway, the writer, left this one particular newspaper I worked for (The Toronto Star) he wrote a 10 page letter on why he didn't like the place. The editors and management put Hemingways letter on display for months on the newspapers bulliten board. That is a great comment!
August 26th, 2004 at 7:01 pm
I love comments--good or bad and I would NEVER EVER delete a critical comment of my work. Go ahead try me
Comments--even if they are one word--say that you have had the time in your busy day to actually come to my blog. Thats a real compliment!
In my early newspaper days, some editors would say that the image I brought to them is total crap or "This is f@#king garbage" Tough editors but good editors.
When Ernest Hemingway, the writer, left this one particular newspaper I worked for (The Toronto Star) he wrote a 10 page letter on why he didn't like the place. The editors and management put Hemingways letter on display for months on the newspapers bulliten board. That is a great comment!
August 26th, 2004 at 10:29 pm
"I post what I want and try not to let the perspective of others effect that... and of course I'm not perfect and sometimes comments do effect me. But my intent was never 'I want to be a super-amazing photographer please tell me what I'm doing wrong.' but more of a 'here's my life. here are some pictures. the end.'"
Gayla, you are a golden goddess! I don't think that I could have said it any better myself.
I will copt to deleting comments -- they're mostly akin to someone wandering into my living room and leaving a steaming pile. Neither I or my visitors should have to endure the smell.
I don't know that I want criticism, constructive or not. I'm very selective about what photographs I post. If I've chosen something, you can be sure that I believe in that photograph and whether or not someone believes it's been "photoshopped" too much isn't really going to mean much.
At the same time, I don't want it to be all about hugs and kisses. Tell me a story, tell me how your feeling, tell me how my photographs make you feel, but don't tell me that my Lensbaby photographs are a bad Photoshop filter. I don't see the point.
I sat through one too many critiques in Art School listening to people crap on others work. I respect the process that you've gone through and the decisions that you've made. I might not like each and everything I see online, but that doesn't mean it's not good.
I'm starting to sound like a wheezy old gas bag so I'll leave it at that...
August 26th, 2004 at 11:25 pm
To: east3rd
I think you've got a good skill for composition and technically the stuff on your site is pretty clean. The only thing that bothers me about not only your photos but a lot of the photoblogging community is that it seems the pictures were taken without the audience in mind. Pretty pictures are easy to take and I think photographers should try to say something with their photos besides "Look how pretty this is".
You dont even have to know what you want to say beforehand you could just find something you're interested in and shoot it every damn week until you
get something that speaks to you.
Keep in mind this is a criticism that aplies to myself just as much as anyone else.
http://www.mattfoto.com
August 27th, 2004 at 1:37 am
"I will copt to deleting comments... I respect the process?" Except for blatant spam, what's the point. a steaming pile?
August 27th, 2004 at 1:41 am
Matt-- I understand what you're saying, but it isn't everyone's intention to "try to say something" with their photographs. People create and maintain their sites for many different reasons. Some folks want to tell the world about themselves and their beliefs in the form of photographs, and some people like to take "pretty pictures".
I imagine that, once I improve the technical side of my work, I'll be able to better express myself without f-stops and shutter speeds getting in the way of what I want to say. Being a musician, I liken this this to attempting to write a piece of music without first having knowlege of song forms, melody, chord structure, etc... I'm a firm believer in learning how to walk before running. For me, that means studying other photographers' work, learning by example, and experimenting-- purely from a technical and compositional standpoint.
August 28th, 2004 at 8:44 pm
The worst criticism is the criticism that says nothing.
I got a dumb piece of critical comment a few days back.
"you should have focussed the lens before firing the shutter". Which would make sense, if the photo wasn't deliberatly out of focus!
The comment didn't tell me what made him dislike the photo, what made it look like it was a poor photo, as opposed to something done intentionally.
So if you're going to critisise, my advice is to be clear and constructive!
August 29th, 2004 at 3:29 am
my site is used as a way for me to document my work and growth (hopefully) as a photography student.
I say on my site that I welcome comments and criticism. I have only had 3 instances of constructive criticism and I loved them. I love hearing why somone likes an image, but I would also love to know what they think could be improved, it may not be something I agree with, but I respect and welcome opinions of others.
I think being a student and having my photos critiqued makes it easier for me to hear those things.